Vaishnavi Sundar reminisces with Sally Jackson about her trip to #FiLiA2021 this year. They discuss what she thought about her first FiLiA, some of the memorable moments and who she met. They discuss the rest of her trip to the UK and also look forward to her newest film project on the horizon.

Listen here (Transcript below):

Transcript:

Sally: We are delighted to be joined today by feminist filmmaker extraordinaire. And one of the absolute hits of the recent FiLiA conference here in Portsmouth. It is so lovely to see you again after spending time with you in Portsmouth.

Vaishnavi: Thank you so much for having me, Sally. It's fantastic to see you and be able to talk to you as well.

Sally: It would be good to chat a little bit about you coming over. And if, you know, if you're happy to tell us what you did on the trip and memories and that sort of thing.

Vaishnavi: It's like every minute of FiLiA was just fantastic. And I thought it can't get any better. And then afterwards we just hung out and then we met all these women and then I thought, well, maybe it can get better.

And then I was walking around on my own. Walking, just walking alone in the UK and that was something else. And I thought I can't properly use words to articulate what I'm feeling right now, if it could be a person, then that would be a very happy version of me. I could just maybe just tell you that the initial stages, when we decided that there is a possibility that there is this absolutely amazing woman who is happy to have me over and can take care of the financial burden, which usually is most of our worries, isn't it?

Because you know FiLiA is a charity, I am a freelance filmmaker who's been cancelled sitting in India, but then we have this internet connection and then the thought of just me being physically there seemed impossible.

Sally: Even when you were here, it was like, this isn’t real.

Vaishnavi: It constantly kept feeling like that. I mean, in the initial stages, I had to like seek help from some of these agents who do this for a living, you know, the visa and other processes, but then they ruined it because ours was a unique case because I'm not employed by somebody in the UK so they can invite me over and everything. So there were all kinds of confusion. And then a week got wasted because they managed very bad paperwork. And then I don't even remember all the kind of people that I call whose numbers were on my phone, the friend, enemy frenemy, calling all kinds of people. If they have any connection with the UK, I would call them and I was plying them with questions.

 And then it turns out, I thought I'll just patiently look into the website. Open the form and then just read what it asks and then we'll take it from there, but the anxiety and the nervousness was just so real, so palpable

  The things that we're asking were fairly straightforward, it's just the fear of making some kind of a mistake, like a stupid mistake when, especially when they ask you a yes or no question you want to say no. When they ask you if you you're an illegal person or whatever and you’re thinking ‘don’t type yes.’

It's just nerves throughout. And then I did apply and then it went through and then there was this waiting game and the agency has to call you. They can't know what it says inside the passport because it will be sealed. You have to physically go there and collect it.

So then I was there and then the question, and then I got it in my head and I was just thinking, this is it. This is the moment. It was really early in the morning. I'm not a morning person. I was just, I was thinking of ‘today is going to be so cranky if the visa has not come.’ So when I opened it and then it was that it was all like, it was worth it, all the hardships are going through the forms, calling all these people. It was all worth it. The entire day was spent letting people like Lisa-Marie know. And over there in the UK it was like ‘I might come to FiLiA I don't know with COVID and all. I'm like, oh my God, I'm coming. I'm coming.

And it was just so bizarre because the only thought that was going on in my mind was even though I had just a billion questions. I just thought Ill try to figure it out on my own because I knew what it means to pull off an event like this and I did not want to like bother any of you because you must all be going far more crazier than I am over here.

I just have to get there. You're running the event. So I tried like as little as possible to annoy and then I wanted to just be there in the presence, you know, amongst the women in the whole spirit of putting everything together and everything, which is why I showed up a day earlier.

Sally: It was brilliant. You had just arrived and then turned up and helped and just go stuck in with everything.

Vaishnavi: I think that's why I didn't feel like. Oh, I was there and I was just coming to speak, it was my event, of course, speaking about these things is never easy, especially femicide and what's going on in India and everything, but it had to be done.

 It was really stunning how quiet everybody was at that time. And then afterwards, when they stood up and then they clapped and everything was like, please, all of you, don't do this. Sit down. You're going to make me cry more than I already am.

Sally: It's just, it's kind of like this whole roller coaster of emotions, isn't it from real highs with the inspiration of women and et cetera. And then you're listening to some of the struggles that women are facing and it breaks your heart. And then something else happens and woman are laughing and it's beautiful.

Vaishnavi: I was on stage and I was talking about this and two seconds later,  that particular panel was over. And then I was downstairs, meeting someone physically for the first time who I know on line for so long. And then this screaming in excitement. Oh my God. Uh, this is how you look, is this how tall you are? You have shade, you know, things like that. It was hilarious. I think it was like a mixture of extreme, serious, sad stuff. And at the same time, this profound friendships and sisterhood and some sort of a promise, really that it's all right. We've got to deal with that horrible, horrible thing, but then we also have this, like these amazing women in one room and, oh, it was just so wonderful Sally and the party. I mean, the next day I had to show up for the first session, they had some marathon thingy on Sunday. And then the cabs wouldn't come and everybody thought I was just drunk from the party, the previous night, but I was not, I mean, nobody would believe me.

It's just that in the mornings, if you live with me and if you know me, I have to really wake up and then I have to really compose myself before I can like face the world. That day I did not have much time to prepare myself for the day. So my face just looked dead. Lisa-Marie kept asking me, are you all right? I said, yes. Do I not look it? What is it? And everyone was just giving me the eye. I said, yeah you didn't get the cab. You didn't get the cab. I said, but it was so much fun. I mean, literally everybody in the room was just having a great time because there was just no men and everybody is just absolutely comfortable.

 Sally: So did you get to dance with dinosaurs?

 Vaishnavi: Yes, I did. It's funny because one of the dinosaurs was also Victoria who I stayed with, one of the volunteers. We had this laugh about how they had to put that on and initially she was feeling so claustrophobic and then she just got used to it. And how when she was trying to get it off because she was suffocating or something. Everybody found that funny because everybody thought she was just doing some gimmick when she was just desperately struggling to get out. It was funny. And I was also there at the historic moment when the cops arrested the dinosaurs, I saw it. I saw it. it happened.

Sally: We got them free!

Vaishnavi: We got the dinosaurs back.

I don't know, it's just something so wonderful about UK feminism. I think it's just this idea of receiving some sort of a resistance or backlash or a horrible terminology thrown at us. And then we just twist it on its head and make it funny. You call this a dinosaur? We show you what a dinosaur looks like.

And then we would just go ahead and do it. And that's the. You know, that's the kind of humour we need in our activism. Isn't it? Otherwise it can just really get really dark and depressing and sad and lonely.

 Sally:  Something I found out last week, which just blew my mind as well was this actually was the second wave of dinosaurs because a few years ago, feminists, I was talking to, and she was saying about how several years ago, feminist were derided for their old fashioned view and we're called dinosaurs. And has something referring to that in a Twitter handle but it refers to that. And she said, but that was from the first time. And it was so funny to see it a second time. And I thought, well, my goodness, I didn't know it was the second wave. The wave is always fabulous.

 Vaishnavi: It was the first time; I feel like a result of some sort of a backlash. Somebody said something.

Sally: Feminists again being old fashioned and not understanding.

Vaishnavi: Women were having thoughts basically.

Sally: Yes, how dare we -

Vaishnavi: But then if it was an independent thing and the women now didn't know about the previous version of the dinosaurs then it's fascinating because it's as if our brains just work like this. And that's pretty commendable because humans just been there for, for many, many years then, it's just passed down along with people roaring and everything. Humour is also passed down, which is amazing.

 Sally: And it’s just the mockery of it, it's a brilliant way to take down insults like that. I think.

 Vaishnavi: Wasn't it like one of the, one of the MPs or somebody who said it?

Sally: It was an MP, David Lammy, that decided we were dinosaurs. He started it. Whoever it is that makes those dinosaur costumes must love him.

Vaishnavi: Yeah. Definitely made a lot of money. A lot of profit. I hope it's a woman though, because oh, no, that was just during the event. And then even after the event all the time spent catching up with women in the 10-minute window between two sessions and then promising each other something. And then to get back to each other about something quickly discussing on a project for future, all of those things also happened.

 I met some filmmakers who came up to me and said things like: I studied filmmaking many years ago. I hadn’t pursued it since marriage or something else. And then they saw me and then they decided that they have to get back to it. And if they did indeed get back to it, then I am just most happiest woman in the world because that's actual change. Isn't it? That actual, tangible thing that somebody has done because of somebody else's views and things like that.

My work at FiLiA this time was done when these women said they're going to get back to filmmaking.

 Sally: One of the things that struck me throughout the conference was, and with the deepest respect, but you really had no idea of the profound effect you've had on women's lives. And you were kind of rocking up because it would be lovely to talk at the FiLiA conference and women were just so excited to be able to see you.

And there were something that they'd seen in one of your films, there was a moment where that was the bit that helped them. There were different aspects of what you've previously done that had already had an impact on their life. And so the chance to see you, really see you live in person, and I think that added to it as well.

Of course, for all of us, it was the first time we'd met in person for a long, long time. It was just all these excited women.

 Vaishnavi: I know, I mean, it was maddening and somebody says something like, oh, you know, it's too bad that you were cancelled, then it'll be somebody like, I don't know some name who I have just been fan girling the entire time on Twitter. And then that person just walks up to me and says, or is it just too bad that you cancelled. Your speech was fantastic. I was like, somebody catch me, I'm going to fall down. It's like an experience that can't be compared with anything else. I think it will happen every year, and then that whole joy of the ups and downs, I think it will happen every year, but every year it will be difficult to describe it.

Sally: The word we use is of magic. And I think that's because we can't think of another word, but there is, there is something magical that happens with those connections between women you can't recreate. It’s just a moment but it's so special when it occurs.  

Vaishnavi: I did think I filmed something while I was there. I had like a bunch of ideas in my head, but I was just so caught up being amazing. Being at the event inside that room, I just did not pick up my camera at all. I wanted to use my eyes and I wanted to just burn all these images in my head, just keep them inside my head because you know there are definitely going to be really dull, dark days in the kind of work that we do, and I want to remember those moments and keep them to cheer me up to say that, well, there are these days and then there will be those days and it's okay.

It's just some little comfort to know that you're in the midst of all these women and you're not a lunatic for having the politics that you have and all these women are also coming from a country that's probably as bad or probably even worse than yours. And to know that they're willing to fight gives us ammo to keep on fighting our fight. That's exactly how I felt when I met women from the performers from Iran, from Afghanistan and Patricia from Zimbabwe. Women from Russia, all these women, it's just really something else Isn't it.

And the many quiet workers who are in the audience constantly, live-tweeting everything. It’s like ‘You're all Queens’ please don't be so awesome. There's only so much awesome per day that I can take.

I don't know if you'll agree with me but people who have not been in a room like that will probably think we're overdoing this. We’re over doing this excitement. If anything, we're not doing this enough.

Sally: I remember on first thing Saturday morning, I said to someone, you know, they asked where somewhere was and I said, oh, it's just over there. So I'm really looking forward to this. I've heard about FiLiA. I said, oh, is it your first one? And she said yes, I said -  I am so jealous because you have no idea what's going to happen to you, but you know, that first time you experience it and she came up to me at the end and said – you were so right.

Vaishnavi: It is true, and I'm a little sad that, you know, we don't know what the future is going to look like, but I hope I can come again next year.

But if I do come, it will be fantastic. We'll be a different kind of fantastic. It's not the first time of fantastic. So it may not even be somebody who's like coming to speak or something just to be in the midst of those women. Just be in the presence of this just magical.

 Sally: I remember. I was listening to the session about the Domestic Violence Act. And one of the things that was just beautiful is, the speakers, as you can imagine, were just awesome and inspiring. And then we were starting to have a discussion and I just kind of summed up the beauty of it because people were talking about women, were mentioning specific texts, that it really helped them to understand, you know, this is a really important learning, and the women were in the room that had written them and they were here and it was just beautiful to have that wisdom and knowledge and the leaders in the field just being part and parcel of the audience.

The Act was a government Act, but was informed by lots of people, but some of the texts that have led us to what is good practice and what we should be fighting for and what works in reality, they were there, they're just part of the audience enjoying FiLiA.

And you just think, do you know the difference that you've made to women's lives? and then as you say, just part of the audience enjoying the event. Just amazing.

Vaishnavi: I think it's one of those things where when women don't realise what an amazing thing that they’ve achieved. like when you say something about my work or how women are looking forward to meeting me, it just does not sink in, but I will not think like that about the other women that I'm the other women I'm just jumping in, then I'm just like, shut up, you're so amazing. Just, you know, you have no idea other than when somebody else says so. Okay, great. Let's talk about you. You know, I think everybody in the crowd are like those people who are like constantly praising other women and just put themselves out there in the warfront and just deal with the whole thing.

And then it just doesn't strike them as something that they have achieved. It's just things that they have to do.

 Sally:  What choice is there? Of course you've got to, so you just get on and get it done. It's the impact of having so many of them there isn't that is just overwhelming sometimes.

Vaishnavi: And you know, the previous night when everybody was just preparing for it, there was just something in the atmosphere. It was about all these women just being in that room, just so spirited and preparing for like this two days of, I don't know, some revolution or something, and it was just there in the air. You could feel it.

Sally:  And probably even more so because it's, of course it was two years preparation. We'd waited and not been able to do it in 2020.

So, the planning of it had been twice as long as usual and so the expectation of seeing the women, hearing the speakers, the gathering itself, you know all of it, even for our volunteers, volunteers that had been with us, but had never been to a FiLiA conference.

 And that was kind of weird because they'd been with us more than a year, but not actually had the opportunity to be at a conference. They obviously were just absolutely brilliant and came together as a team. And there were so many of them we'd never actually met, we talked on zoom et cetera, but again, like so many we've not actually met so it was a very unusual conference this year, very unusual gathering. But will be memorable because of it, for sure.

 Vaishnavi: You know, whatever was going on, because hundred things can go wrong and they just managed it.

And all the things that we did afterwards. I mean, I had the pleasure of staying with you for the next few days. And just us talking with different things about India, about animals, love them.

Sally: How was it when you came back seeing your dog?

Vaishnavi: Yeah. I had been missing her and I had obviously, as, you know, come back to a very, very bad news of my friend losing her pet and she, obviously the pet herself, she is just so dear to me. And when that happened, it was just at the tail end of the trip. It just really rattled me. I hadn't really settled down because of that. So when I came and I met my pet, it was all kinds of different things that I was feeling, it was grief, it was profound happiness of having seen her, all kinds of things. I was feeling horrible that this had happened, but I was also grateful that I could meet her when she was still there. So, so many different things. It took me a few days to really settle down, you know, just catch up with things and really know that I am home. And that my pet is here. I know I can hug her if I need her.

It's one of those things, isn't it? If you just love animals so much you, you do what you do, you don't stop it. You never move away from animal work, but at the same time, you know, that these things are part and parcel of life and somehow you just don't ever get used to it.

When you told me about your cat. I was so heartbroken. It feels as if it's my own loss, when I hear women talk about their pets with so much fondness and love and affection, it feels like it's my own loss. And I feel for them along with them.

So this loss was particularly vicious. Devastating just devastating. I still think about her and cry sometimes. It's really stupid, but it's just how I am.

But when we did spend that time together, it was great because we went cycling. She was on my back and I mean, my friend, she is amazing.

She's a radical feminist, lesbian feminist. She was a fantastic artists and spending time with her was delightful as it is. And then we had this little, little bundle in the mix and it just made it like a hundred times better. But we, my friend and I, we have this thing, this one superstition we're allowing ourselves that there is a puppy heaven. Or rather there is an animal heaven where all the animals go. And you know, when we think about that and we take comfort in that, but you know, life unfortunately goes on without them.

Gender critical feminists and some of the vegan feminists, the love for the animals is something that just naturally draws me towards them.

You know, if you love an animal, I'm just your friend. That's just how it is. That's also something. I found in a lot of friendships within the FiLiA gang. I had found friendships that is based specific to our love for animals. You know, we may not be able to work together for whatever reason, because our interests are very different, but then we just like each other because we love animals so much. So there’s so many different dimensions of having met different kinds of women.

Sally: Oh, gosh, we were so happy that you came and that the donor, so generously enabled that to happen. And all the magic that then ensued from that at the conference, but also I think one of the things it's sometimes really hard to measure is all the little things that happen then afterwards, because of those meetings and because of those connections.

Vaishnavi:  It seems like a very natural thing for me to do after having made this foray also to touch upon the positions of what we now call trans widows. Because it's kind of a related issue, but media is now catching up with the whole transition thing. But the trans widow issue is still like very much like a taboo subject. So I did write to a few people because I'm going to be there personally. I wanted to meet a few people. I did meet a couple of women and that was amazing.

Thinking about meeting somebody in person that sort of entrusts some sort of a faith in that other person's work and everything. And I think that was very important. I also wanted to meet the women so they know that I'm invested in this. I'm genuine. And I care about this. I've just put the word out and already more than 10 women have written to me from mostly the west, but I'm hoping that at some point I will also be able to speak with say women in a lesbian relationship whose partner decided to transition and left them, that's also an important story.

 That's like a, a little subset within the subset. Isn't it? I mean, if we're not talking about heterosexual wives of these men who do this, we definitely not going to talk about lesbian relationships. We’re already not thinking that this legitimate relationship and media doesn't consider it that way.

And why would they care if a woman transitions into a man and leaves this poor woman alone. But I understand that the challenges are a lot more than for heterosexual women. So I'm hoping somehow I can convince at least one or two women to speak about it. That's also the thing, because anonymity's a very important aspect of this film.

So I have, I am going to come up with so many different creative ways. Over this course of time, I have built up relationships with many amazing creatives, around the world. Animators, painters, artists in general. And I'm thinking of all kinds of different ways in which I can portray them by either recreating their story or just using their voices and making sure that their anonymity's maintained because more than anybody else, I understand what it means because I'm not anonymous and I know what's at stake. So I will never come in the way of the anonymous and I understand most of these women are mothers and they worry about their children. So if not for themselves, they have to definitely worry about the children. So all those things considered I'm really excited.

 One, because I'm able to make this film because there has been no film on the subject so far. It is going to now open up new avenues for me because now more women will be part of this film. Earlier I would just record it and edit it myself and the film is ready, but now I will seek artists from different parts of the world. Animators, painters, illustrators, who could then put their heads together and to create this personality of this one particular woman whose story narrating, who wants to be anonymous and, you know, things like that. Ideas are just buzzing in my head right now. I will be honest and say that it's going to be really hard for me to sit down and hear all these things over and over and over, but it's not as hard as what the women went through. So I think it's important that somebody’s got the link.

Sally: You know, I think you're so right. It's stories that aren't told isn't it. And, and I think. It's so important that they are told, but also the fact that they will be in such safe hands with you. The end result will be something that women would be really proud of being part of.

 And it strikes me as well. One of the things that I remember as I was chatting about it before, that it is beautiful about the way that you work, the involving this sort of global community of creatives that, in some ways, you know what this virtual world has given us, or accelerated for us is that ability to work with women all over the world. Before we would have had perhaps a much smaller community, because we would have looked around who can I chat to get to speak to? Who could I meet with? And now there's this whole global community and the creativity that must spark off that is just enhanced, isn't it with the different ideas.

Vaishnavi: All these differences that we have in terms of race and culture and language and all those barriers, they don't come in the way of our creativity whatsoever.

 So the whole thing of engaging women from around the world, I have done it even before the whole pandemic thing happened. So I know that it's possible. A lot of people have now suddenly warmed up to the idea that it is possible now because they have worked from home. So it is doubly beneficial for me because I'm like an old hand. I mean, I know you can work from anywhere in the world. I want to erase the borders. So now, because all these women are also confident having worked for two years, sitting at home, it's just, everybody just hop on board. Let's just go and make this film.

 Aside from all the horrible experiences that these women had to go through, what comes out of it is, is a film that will stay for posterity. So that at least we know that we have logged this information. It's there. And so that people can’t turn around and ask us, why didn't you talk about it? Why didn't these women come forward? Women have always come forward. It's just, you chose not to hear us out.

So I want this to also be like a thing on the internet. It will just be there. And I'm sure I'm so sure that all the feminists that we know will find ways to screen it, to talk about it, to write about it. They just do the job. I make the film and they champion it. It is magical. That's what happened with this Dysphoric. And I know I'm confident that's going to happen with this film as well.

 Sally: I remember when Dysphoric came out, and again, you say generously with all the work that went into it, just then make it freely available. And the number of people that hadn't really kind of got what the problem was, you know, it was kind of like, you want to live your life like that. That's fine. Why should it, why should anyone else interfere and et cetera. Through watching Dysphoric, because it was produced in such a reasonable way, you know, it was just, let's look at what's happening here and, and see what some of these consequences are and what this has meant for different women that have been affected.

And the number of people that were just kind of like, oh, oh, oh, okay I get it now. Because it was just very gently pointing out some of the things that we've been saying we've been concerned about, but it was a medium that enabled people to understand it. Whereas sometimes I think you know well, quite obviously, if you're having a discussion on social media or something like that, or even with someone who's very anti you, it gets very polarised. And, actually you're not even listening to the other argument perhaps just trying to think of your own arguments, but the way in which it was delivered, I think helps so many people to understand what some of the problems with what's been happening, you know, for the general community, but also for individuals, like we mentioned, just now for de-transitioners, the impact that, that had on their lives.

Vaishnavi: Despite my very conscious effort to be factual and just deliver the information and not position myself, even though it's very obvious where I stand, but I did not deliberately say anything or show anybody as the enemy or anybody who's the good one here or something like that. Despite that there has been so much backlash coming from the trans lobby where the film has been sort of de-boosted stayed on YouTube.

They haven't taken it off. They can't take it off. It will be another kind of a problem because an Indian woman, making film, putting it on YouTube. There will be another kind of problem, I think that's the only reason why they kept it there. Otherwise they could have mass reported it because lot of women shared it, like the most hated ‘terfs’ shared it.

So if the most hated terfs shared something saying that it is good, then people will just jump in and mass report it. I think mass reporting has resulted in just being, not visible in the algorithm. It must be true because when people search for it, they just cannot find it on YouTube. Unless they know me, they know my name, they search for these words specifically, it will not show up.

Come January it'll be a year since I made this foray. The first part hasn't even crossed 90,000 views. They're sort of some sort of minimising that as well. The YouTube algorithm does, but I know for a fact, so many women have watched and not just once but multiple times.

And so the number got to be more. The fourth chapter particularly has received like a lot of hate because in that I'm talking about gender critical feminism. And I'm talking about all the women that were cancelled and their university politicians. So that particular episode is just receiving so much more backlash and it's got the least views. And that just does not show up on the search bar whatsoever.

But, you know, we find ways, women find ways they tag, they tag me on Twitter, they tag me on Facebook. They just do the job. I mean, this is exactly what I said. On the second day calling for global sisterhood. I have so far not responded to a single derogatory comment under the video.

Other women have on my behalf, not just about the content of the film, but also kind of implying that Vaishnavi wouldn't do it, even though they don't know who I am, but that's not what she's saying. Why don't you watch five three and she has talked about that? Why do you jump to conclusions? You only just watched part one.

The women have done this job for me. I have not responded to any comment. And that's the true sisterhood in action. Isn't it? I mean, it breaks my heart that not a lot of Indian women are watching or supporting me. This film has basically caused a lot of rifts between a lot of women that I know, erstwhile friends who wouldn't even want to talk to me anymore.

And they can't even criticize it. If it’s transphobic, write about it. but they're not doing that. All they're doing is making a post, making sure they don't link the film and sort of calling for a lot of people to go and report it, or my account, or a bunch of them created like an Instagram account to take my profile down and, you know, things like that. Terf or something like that was the name of the account and they took a screenshot of my Twitter and said, this is the literal whatever plague for Indian feminism cancelled her. People have a lot of time, awful lot of time in their hands.

When they were doing it, I had made another film. I had written a bunch of articles. I had come to FiLiA

Sally: The love and care that is shown to the film. And I think that's what, you know, thinking of, of your next project with the trans-widow, I'm really interested to see it because it is that that love and care that it will be presented with. And the respect for the women, I think that's what shines out. This is coming from a place of sisterhood.

 Vaishnavi: I was very careful about it during this foray. There are two reasons for it. One I didn't want to cause any rift between women in our movement. You know, we all have different views, but I wanted this film to not be the cost of a debate, but I wanted this film to be the reason why we agreed to something and came together rather than found reasons to disagree with or fight with or debate. I mean, they obviously find things that they don't like in it. It's absolutely fine. I did my best. That's how I feel about the film on trans-widows. If anything, I think I will be sort of nourishing it with so much more love and care because I know the responsibility I have on my shoulder.

 And that's the thing, Sally, that just, just melted my heart. When I posted it online that I'm looking to speak to women. The confidence with which they were sharing and asking other women to get in touch with me, the confidence was just so it just made my eyes moist. You don't know who I am. I might just butcher this film. How are you so confident? I am not. I'm constantly nervous. I have to be constantly checking myself. You know, listen to like a one-minute clip of a woman, I said like hundred times be 100% sure that I want that in the film. You know, not misrepresent anybody. So many things go on in my mind when I'm sitting in and you have what like 20, 30 hours of footage that you have to make into a meaningful one-hour film.

It's not an easy job. There are avenues for you to make mistakes. Especially when I know that my friends have just completely alienated themselves from me, this online sisterhood that I have, it's just, I'm just so grateful. I feel like the best thing that happened to me was my cancellation because I moved over and now I'm not hiding anymore.

This is me and it is rewarding to be this because I would not change anything about myself. If this is the kind of sisterhood, this is the kind of confidence I get in return.  The women are willing to work with me and happy to collaborate with me. This is what I'm getting. Then I'm the biggest terf in the world.

Sally: That's why you’re so welcome on to terf island.

(Lots of laughter)